Comments on: Will Software Ever Make Us Redundant?

By: landunknown

landunknown — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:29:00 +0000

I am new here and not a programmer by any means. If this happens I would be thrilled, not that it hurts the programmers, but I would not have to deal with code that Dreamweaver throws out there. In my experience programmers and designers have their respective rolls. There are of course programmers that design well, although not many designers that program. An old partner of mine (best friend as well) is a very talented programmer whether it is web or something else. He would never touch anything that I could wrap my head around, he codes everything from scratch with no visuals at all. Even if there is a piece of software that comes along as stated, programmers are still safe. There would still be most programming deficiant designers as myself that need the skills you have to offer. Knowledge is a much greater asset than a piece of software.

By: Dennis Eusebio

Dennis Eusebio — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:29:59 +0000

I think there will always be a place for hand-coding. Dreamweaver has promised to provide this type of visual web page maker for the longest time and for the most part has failed.I think the problem with creating a visual web design suite is that standards change yearly. How you coded a site now is dramatically different than how you did it before. If the industry keeps on this pace, it’ll be hard for anyone to make relevant software.

By: Tony Chester

Tony Chester — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:50:33 +0000

Great post. There is a plugin for Photoshop that says it accomplishes just what your’re saying. Check Site Grinder from Media Labs. We’ve played with it a bit and it’s a little touchy but it’s a first step.

By: Derek Kinsman

Derek Kinsman — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:46:28 +0000

Eventually we the developers will be out of a job. Not anytime soon. There is a lot of things this ‘magic’ WYSIWYG will have to do to be successful? Will it support Ruby, MySQL, SQLite, Postgre SQL, PHP, Perl, ASP, Python, HTML, CSS, Javascript? Will it support the frameworks (Rails, CakePHP, Django)? Will it support Javascript libraries (Prototype, Mootools, JQuery, Script.aculo.us)? Will it update to support new releases of the languages, frameworks and libraries? On top of all that will it be easy to use? Will it look good (we all know designers want good looking software)? Can I sync it to a CVS or SVN and share with my other web buddies I work with? FTP support? I could probably keep asking questions but you get the idea. Whoever wants to make that software is going to need a great deal of coffee. Of course, you’re going to need people who are experts in each language to help with how this app will function. But a few years after this ‘wonder’ app is released you might not be able to find these people. I say best of luck to anyone who is undertaking such a project. Others before have failed, and whoever ‘you’ are… you are potentially going to make a great deal of people looking for new work if they haven’t had time to move their skills into more of the design end of things.

By: Becky

Becky — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:45:38 +0000

Great post, on a topic that I’ve thought about a bit, myself. BTW, if you’re being PC, we’re not "girls." ;) I don’t think it will make us redundant, any more than your analogy of printers/printing has made printers redundant. As with printing, it will just change how people use our services. Most of my clients are aware that they could cobble together something that sort-of works using Frontpage or some sort of web-builder software, but they don’t want to put the time into it, and they know I can make them something much better. Even if the software were capable of producing error-free, cross-browser compatible pages, they still wouldn’t necessarily have any design sense, or know how to use the software itself! I think by the time there’s any danger of redundancy, we’ll all be getting ready for retirement. All we have to do is stay one step ahead.

By: Darren

Darren — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:06:08 +0000

AS some people have already stated. There is always going tyo be a place for hand coding. Any software with the knowledge and ability to do what us hand coders do will have a much too complicated GUI for any non professional to understand. I think so long as we can keep on top of standrds, design and the many different languages and ways of using them I am sure we’re safe.

By: Andrew

Andrew — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:39:01 +0000

Developers will never be out of a job. The biggest part of development, whether it be for software or the web, is problem solving. Having the perfect application will not take care of problem solving for you–sure, the perfect app will make the implementation of your solution easier, but it doesn’t generate the solution.Even the most perfect app will only be able to generate code blocks, and generic ones at that. There are C++ applications that take away the need for the developer to hand-code GUI elements, but no one can ever joke that we can replace a C/C++ programmer with software. The web is the same way. Behind the steering wheel, there must be the driver.

By: NatalieMac

NatalieMac — Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:13:24 +0000

There is so much more to a web site or web application than the way it looks. Even if a program existed that could turn a design into perfect, semantic, valid HTML/xHTML, how would this program handle adding client-side behaviors and complex server-side database queries, etc.? How could a program evaluate content that you were adding and be sure it was marked up with the appropriate tags?I have no doubt that a program with this amazing complexity and capability will exist, but I think we’re still quite a ways off. And there will always be a need for a human element - certain types of decisions and interpretations aren’t available to artificial intelligence.

By: Trevor Davis | Blog » It’s Still a Stinking WYSIWYG

Trevor Davis | Blog » It’s Still a Stinking WYSIWYG — Sat, 25 Aug 2007 02:28:09 +0000

[…] As I was thinking about this writing this, I was reading a post at entitled “Will Software Ever Make Us Redundant?”. […]

By: MarkO

MarkO — Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:59:41 +0000

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with the comments above. We will never be redundant simply because the perfect peice of software needs someone to guide it.. If there is a flaw with the perfect peice of software that chucks out perfect code, it’s that it’s created in a perfect world–one where there are no problems to solve, no algorithms to create.It would be a blessing for all of us if a peice of software can create everything perfectly.. In fact, it will not replace us but instead help us in our work. I mean, how many times have we struggled to create things that work smoothly? If there is a single application that could actually create perfect code, I would gladly buy it. This reminds me of a part in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory where Charlie’s father was fired because of a machine that could do his job faster.. It turns out in the end that the company had to rehire him to fix the machine that replaced him in the first place.It’s actually exciting to think that one day, we could be replaced by machines to do our job. It’s exciting because we know that it could never really happen, and it gives us that extra self-esteem, knowing that how ever technology may progress, it just can replace us who created it in the first place.. :D

By: Vincent

Vincent — Sat, 25 Aug 2007 07:15:50 +0000

I think the point to remember here is that we all must maintain a varied (but pointed) skillset.So many of the people out there who consider themselves web designers know little to nothing of design; in fact, many web designers out there are three quarters programmer, one quarter designer, if that. So really, the ever-present threat of obselescence through software (or robotics, or anything else Blade Runner/Matrix-esque) is one that, whether or not we think it’s realistic, should motivate us to do what we do and do it the absolute best way we know how.It takes supercomputers to defeat the human chess masters, and chess is a game of logic and strategy; I don’t think any program could really replicate the soul it takes to produce good design. Another important point to walk away with: even for a skill as specialized as web design, job security is scarce. All the more reason to learn as much about what we do as we possibly can, but also retain the ability, as you mention at the end of the post, to roll with the proverbial punches. We must be able to adapt if we expect to survive. Darwinism applies to business as well as to nature.

By: Matt Davies

Matt Davies — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 08:18:15 +0000

Thanks for the comments guys, most interesting...

Would people agree then that as software gets more advanced programmers and developers will take on a more maintenance like role?

I agree with the comments which suggest that there will always be the need for human decision making and problem solving. However, I think we need to consider the context of this post. There will always be a user to drive the hypothetical super software. If this software sperts out perfect code then normal people (eg. not pros) will be able to use it. Professionals would also use it because it would save them time. The point is though that NO HAND CODING would need to take place and that would mean that those of us who can code by hand, unless we have other tools in the toolbag, will be redundant in this area.

@Becky = I'll take back the "girls" and replace it with "feminine people" ;-)

@Vincent = I agree that lessons from nature can be applied to business but I personally am not a fan of Darwin's "Theory". Nature speaks of intricate, well balanced DESIGN, which places it far and above pure chance. Lets apply those aspects of nature which can be proved and that are not "theory". Everything has been thought out and catered for in nature, that’s what we should try and do in our little lives.

By: Mathias Hellquist

Mathias Hellquist — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:36:45 +0000

Agreeing with MarkO, I, as a long-time developer (both front-end and back-end) would love to see a piece of software like that. It would mean I could spend more time doing the actual DESIGN OF THE CODE, which is pretty much ALWAYS the most time consuming bit, and incidentally also is the trickiest bit to explain to someone who isn’t a developer.The day graphic designers can, via graphical interfaces and pixel/vector design software, create complex database solutions for high volume web sites, that are secure enough and reliable enough, I think is far away.Programming and development isn’t about syntax anyways in the first place, it is about mind set, and I think most people realise that though most online banks are pretty poor (for various reasons), pretty pixels wouldn’t solve their problem. Nor does most people think Googles setup and architecture is non-complex, even though their site isn’t the most beautiful out there.I think Joels Iceberg article can be applied here. ;)Just my £0.02 :)/mathias

By: SayB

SayB — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:29:10 +0000

Really Nice article! These are the kind of things that are related to almost every profession. I am a programmer by profession, frankly this kind of notion did not raise my eyebrows although it is of great interest as it raises questions of another realm for me. This HAS happened in the past as the printers example shouts out loud enough. If you see the bigger picture you’ll notice this pattern and will see mother nature at work :) "change is inherent in nature, its innevitable, unavoidable". One can either be skeptic or positive about this change, really depends how you take it. I might not know what "exactly" us programmers might shift to when this happens, but I’m sure those who are innovative will get by in the same industry. After all, whatever you make, the human element is required because its not in our nature to sit still and do nothing. In a short sentence, it would be like a rarefaction that would have to be filled.

By: David B.

David B. — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 03:00:59 +0000

you know i have been listening to yet another conversation where people talk about hand coding as the holy grail and dreamweaver sucking… i have been using dreamweaver for about 5 years now and i have yet to discover this grotesque code that it spits out, of course i guess if you wysiwyg with it then yeah the code would be ‘messy’ but then again if you are using dreamweaver in that capacity are you really a web designer? or just someone trying to pose as one?

I use dreamweaver to set up a new page then hand code the rest and can easil look at what im creating visually in the the same program (as long as its nondynamic) this isnt a plug for DW but rather asking people to get off the ‘dreamweaver sucks’ bandwagon. its a tool when used right can take time off your production, and if used wrong will add pain and anxiety.

now back on topic, there will never be a program as the one you describe because it would have to either have auto updated releases or learn on its own and since we are not at that stage of computer evolution (its coming though) we should all be fine, though i do think you should try to diversify yourself as much as possible, if you you a designer, learn some programming languages, if you are a programmer learn some designer, but most importantly, drop these preconceived notions of being able to do it all yourself and align yourself with friends that can do other things (meaning that its their talent to design/program, etc.

By: David Owens

David Owens — Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:05:39 +0000

I think people are missing a huge part of the role a professional web developer plays.When I am writing the HTML for a website, I am not just thinking about how it will look on the page. I am considering the semantics of the document. I am using my experience of user testing and discussing potential issues with the designer. I am thinking about how to present the information in the most appealing and understandable way, working with a copywriter to create the right tone for the website. I am using microformats to enhance the data, make it machine readable and extend it’s usefulness beyond the webpage. I am doing much more than create an HTML version of a Photoshop comp. Sure, I can knock together a design in Illustrator or InDesign, but it is not until I have seen a professional designer take on the same project that I appreciate what his subjective skill and experience bring to the table. It is the same for developers. Unless the software is able to extract the semantic meaning of the content, to understand how people look at and use a website, and how the usefulness of that information can be enhanced, there will be a role for web professionals. Unless the software can keep building on this understanding and learning the more you use it, there will always be a role for web professionals.

By: Jonathan Gibson

Jonathan Gibson — Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:53:28 +0000

Joy Mountford, as head of Apple’s Human Interface Group told me in the early 1990’s, "The programmers of today are the garbagemen of tomorrow." Now, I’d thought this harsh and a rather cruel POV, but watching the rapid de-industrialization - and now tech industry too - overseas she’s prescient. So, it’s hard not to agree with our host’s question. At some point all this becomes auto-magically done by smart systems and when not by automation, then by a cheapness of labor factor that makes the quality difference neglible for clients. I grew up around the print/typography world and know well the case being made - Layout could only be done by applying hot beeswax to the backside of ‘clipped art’ CUT from giant bound scrapbooks and PASTED next to carefully received strips of optically caste text from Typographers who simply couldn’t believe their expertise was replicable or at least roughly/simply commodified. The same can be said of Architecture becoming moot {at least drastically discounted} through land developer-contractor agents dumping ring binders of ’styles’ in front of house buyers to fenestrate cookie-cutter floor plans. Whatching this occur is why I left building design in favor of interactive work.I love the GUI/EX work and am sad to say there seems far little appreciation {ex: budgets for quality gigs} for it in the XXIst. I miss interesting anad challenging jobs that span the globe, but the only traction I find these last years is in small local busuness with far too limited a horizon for my tastes. You ride the waves of technology and finance as best your skills can be developed and be prepared for major retooling more often than you expect.

By: Brock Barr

Brock Barr — Sun, 14 Oct 2007 09:24:39 +0000

This is a good call. I think the thing with technology is that you can never really predict what clients will want in the future and where things are going to go. The best thing is to stay on top of developments, be very open minded, flexible and stay aware of everything mentioned above. This way when the writing is really on the wall, you’ll be prepared. Thanks for highlighting this.

By: Rudolf Lai

Rudolf Lai — Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:09:28 +0000

I think you have a strong point here. But I think you should consider this: web authoring software developers and browser/php developers work stimutaneously. i.e. if one problem of browser compatability is solved in the developing software, another arises between the browsers. The cycle continues and we might never get the "perfect web authoring software". And also, how about the logic in coding? each and every developer writes different code, although they arrive at the same thing, no computer can (at least in the forseeable future) work out the logic of developing complex web applications/pages.

By: Stanley Baptista

Stanley Baptista — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 19:40:49 +0000

As software development tools increase in sophistication, they definitely reduce the need for highly skilled developers in a given field for solutions to particular problems.So, will software "ever catch up those of us who code from scratch?".I would re-phrase to "Will software eventually match the value provided by what is currently done by ‘hand-coders’ thus 1) obsoleting them, or 2) greatly reducing the numbers required, or 3) require coders with less expertise?".I think you should assume the answer is yes. It’s just a matter of time.But, here’s the thing: By the time that happens with today’s problems, new innovations will have emerged and new (or newly-trained) "hand-coders" will once again provide value in some other area. That’s the nature of the biz and it’s not likely to change in the foreseeable future.The real question is, to what extent are you willing to constantly monitor "obsolesence trends" and learn new skills? Some do this for decades, others get tired and look for other things to do.Also, something to consider about what you characterize as "hand-coding"…unless I miss my guess, you do not personally "hand-code" the following:The browser.Database management software.Client and server programming languages.The operating system.Network management software.Yet, ALL of these are required to create a web application and each requires "hand-coding" by someone.The tools provided by a relatively small set of highly skilled developers means that many more with far less training can leverage the expertise. That also, is the nature of the biz. So, to a large extent, the question becomes one of where you want to fit into the innovation curve.