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	<title>Comments on: Anti-Flash Standardistas - You&#8217;re Cutting Off Your Nose to Spite Your Face</title>
	<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/</link>
	<description>thoughts on &#124; comments about &#124; examples of  } web design trends.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 19:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew Faulkner</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13689</link>
		<author>Andrew Faulkner</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 15:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13689</guid>
					<description>A very thought-provoking article, PJ. Nice one.

I am a devoted standardista myself but tend to agree that moaning on about the existence of a technology is not the way to go about things - one should instead investigate how to make the technology more accessible to all and make others aware of the issues and solutions. This is the way of a true standards guru.
The problem with Flash isn't the technology here - it is often the bad usage of it in my opinion. Some Flash sites may as well be done in HTML/CSS as all they have is a basic layout with a 'funky navigation' - where Flash becomes useful is its usage as elements in a HTML/CSS site - like this:

http://web.burza.hr/

The above site is &lt;em&gt;using&lt;/em&gt; Flash - some sites &lt;em&gt;abuse&lt;/em&gt; it.
Well said, PJ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very thought-provoking article, PJ. Nice one.</p>
<p>I am a devoted standardista myself but tend to agree that moaning on about the existence of a technology is not the way to go about things - one should instead investigate how to make the technology more accessible to all and make others aware of the issues and solutions. This is the way of a true standards guru.<br />
The problem with Flash isn&#8217;t the technology here - it is often the bad usage of it in my opinion. Some Flash sites may as well be done in HTML/CSS as all they have is a basic layout with a &#8216;funky navigation&#8217; - where Flash becomes useful is its usage as elements in a HTML/CSS site - like this:</p>
<p><a href="http://web.burza.hr/" rel="nofollow">http://web.burza.hr/</a></p>
<p>The above site is <em>using</em> Flash - some sites <em>abuse</em> it.<br />
Well said, PJ.</p>
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		<title>By: gareth</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13690</link>
		<author>gareth</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 15:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13690</guid>
					<description>Great article :-) 

http://www.orange-project.com/ is a great example of accessible flash</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article :-) </p>
<p><a href="http://www.orange-project.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.orange-project.com/</a> is a great example of accessible flash</p>
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		<title>By: Nate K</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13717</link>
		<author>Nate K</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 21:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13717</guid>
					<description>Very well said. Personally, I hate the word 'standardista.' I think that it has a negative connotation attached to it. However, as a developer who supports web standards and creating accessible content - I realize the benefits of the different technologies. I don't single them out. As you have said, it has been abused - lets get OVER it and move forward. 

Flash is making GREAT strides at being accessible to a wider audience. Still, some of that is reliant on the developer knowing how to take those steps. 

I am glad that you cited examples of where Flash excels and cannot be replaced with JS/HTML (especially when you are comparing filesizes). I work for a book publisher. Recently we wanted to make two additions to our site, an area to listen to author interviews and an area to preview our audio books. My first look was to flash to create a small audio 'container' that would allow me to throw different files in for listening. This simply couldn't be done with HTML/JS. In this specific instance (and I strive to make our site fully accessible - and continue to work to make improvements) - Flash was the best tool to get the job done, and, when I am finished with everything it will be accessible (as far as providing textual alternatives, etc).

I will say, however, that using youtube's html as an example is like pointing to myspace for quality pages. We know its bad. Just because no one raises a fit about it (or because its inaccessible to some), doesn't mean that its RIGHT. I am sure google will take the right steps to fix it ;) hehe.

Thanks for a great article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well said. Personally, I hate the word &#8217;standardista.&#8217; I think that it has a negative connotation attached to it. However, as a developer who supports web standards and creating accessible content - I realize the benefits of the different technologies. I don&#8217;t single them out. As you have said, it has been abused - lets get OVER it and move forward. </p>
<p>Flash is making GREAT strides at being accessible to a wider audience. Still, some of that is reliant on the developer knowing how to take those steps. </p>
<p>I am glad that you cited examples of where Flash excels and cannot be replaced with JS/HTML (especially when you are comparing filesizes). I work for a book publisher. Recently we wanted to make two additions to our site, an area to listen to author interviews and an area to preview our audio books. My first look was to flash to create a small audio &#8216;container&#8217; that would allow me to throw different files in for listening. This simply couldn&#8217;t be done with HTML/JS. In this specific instance (and I strive to make our site fully accessible - and continue to work to make improvements) - Flash was the best tool to get the job done, and, when I am finished with everything it will be accessible (as far as providing textual alternatives, etc).</p>
<p>I will say, however, that using youtube&#8217;s html as an example is like pointing to myspace for quality pages. We know its bad. Just because no one raises a fit about it (or because its inaccessible to some), doesn&#8217;t mean that its RIGHT. I am sure google will take the right steps to fix it ;) hehe.</p>
<p>Thanks for a great article.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bishop</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13734</link>
		<author>Mike Bishop</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 00:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13734</guid>
					<description>Very well put!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well put!</p>
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		<title>By: Johan</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13735</link>
		<author>Johan</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 00:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13735</guid>
					<description>I think the biggest problem is that many people that have anything against flash, are the same people that have not that much knowledge or 
experience using flash or what flash can do. Correct me if I am wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the biggest problem is that many people that have anything against flash, are the same people that have not that much knowledge or<br />
experience using flash or what flash can do. Correct me if I am wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Tor Løvskogen Bollingmo</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13738</link>
		<author>Tor Løvskogen Bollingmo</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 01:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13738</guid>
					<description>The reason I have a bad view on flash developers, is because the majority of them don't know HTML, and that's a reason why they use Flash. Flash is not supposed to be a substitute for HTML, but a rich add-on. 

I sure do believe that Flash will improve much, and I think we will see more nifty things like sIFR in the comming year - so no reason to block out Flash. Good read :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason I have a bad view on flash developers, is because the majority of them don&#8217;t know HTML, and that&#8217;s a reason why they use Flash. Flash is not supposed to be a substitute for HTML, but a rich add-on. </p>
<p>I sure do believe that Flash will improve much, and I think we will see more nifty things like sIFR in the comming year - so no reason to block out Flash. Good read :)</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13761</link>
		<author>Alex</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13761</guid>
					<description>"For each bad use of Flash, there are hundreds being used well."

I'd think that would be the other way around, myself... especially where usability and accessibility are concerned! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For each bad use of Flash, there are hundreds being used well.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d think that would be the other way around, myself&#8230; especially where usability and accessibility are concerned! ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13810</link>
		<author>Mark</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13810</guid>
					<description>Great article. Flash is best used for rich interfaces like Flickr's Organizr - something like that would be exceptionally hard to pull off in cross-browser JS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article. Flash is best used for rich interfaces like Flickr&#8217;s Organizr - something like that would be exceptionally hard to pull off in cross-browser JS.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Davies</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13864</link>
		<author>Matt Davies</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13864</guid>
					<description>Flash is the future...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flash is the future&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nate K</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13874</link>
		<author>Nate K</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13874</guid>
					<description>RE: Matt,
I dont think 'Flash is the Future' - I think thats a dangerous mindset, really. Remember, it's a tool to get the job done - not a 'savior of web design.' Aside from the fact that most people don't take the time to build flash properly, it will still have issues related to how people use the web.

RE: Tor
You hit the nail on the head. So many designers never want to learn HTML, so they just play in the timeline in flash. To them, thats much easier - but they haven't got the first clue about creating QUALITY flash for a website, and when/where to use the tool. They just use it for everything.

I had a local 'developer' show me some flash movies he made for a client. It took over 2 minutes to download, and when it finally arrived it was less than impressive. He told me 'the client wanted everything in the flash, so it takes a while to load' Apparently, he has never learned how to load external movies, how to use flash with JS/AS/XML to get the job done properly. Those movies could have loaded much faster and worked much better if he built them properly, but instead - the client suffers because he doesn't even know how to use the tool he is working with - Flash. This is not Flash's fault, but I think so many people are still ignorant as to HOW to use the tool, that it continues to get abused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Matt,<br />
I dont think &#8216;Flash is the Future&#8217; - I think thats a dangerous mindset, really. Remember, it&#8217;s a tool to get the job done - not a &#8217;savior of web design.&#8217; Aside from the fact that most people don&#8217;t take the time to build flash properly, it will still have issues related to how people use the web.</p>
<p>RE: Tor<br />
You hit the nail on the head. So many designers never want to learn HTML, so they just play in the timeline in flash. To them, thats much easier - but they haven&#8217;t got the first clue about creating QUALITY flash for a website, and when/where to use the tool. They just use it for everything.</p>
<p>I had a local &#8216;developer&#8217; show me some flash movies he made for a client. It took over 2 minutes to download, and when it finally arrived it was less than impressive. He told me &#8216;the client wanted everything in the flash, so it takes a while to load&#8217; Apparently, he has never learned how to load external movies, how to use flash with JS/AS/XML to get the job done properly. Those movies could have loaded much faster and worked much better if he built them properly, but instead - the client suffers because he doesn&#8217;t even know how to use the tool he is working with - Flash. This is not Flash&#8217;s fault, but I think so many people are still ignorant as to HOW to use the tool, that it continues to get abused.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Faulkner</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13878</link>
		<author>Andrew Faulkner</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13878</guid>
					<description>Matt,

I think that Flash is part of the future, but only part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>I think that Flash is part of the future, but only part.</p>
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		<title>By: Meep</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13882</link>
		<author>Meep</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-13882</guid>
					<description>I have always conceded that Flash does have its uses, like in music and entertainment-based sites, or as an educational tool, etc. But the amount of abuse makes Flash unappealing, not the technology behind it. I'm also tired of seeing loading screens - how tacky is that? We're in the age of broadband, and the last thing an end user needs to see is more waiting time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always conceded that Flash does have its uses, like in music and entertainment-based sites, or as an educational tool, etc. But the amount of abuse makes Flash unappealing, not the technology behind it. I&#8217;m also tired of seeing loading screens - how tacky is that? We&#8217;re in the age of broadband, and the last thing an end user needs to see is more waiting time.</p>
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		<title>By: matthijs</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-14227</link>
		<author>matthijs</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-14227</guid>
					<description>Another point not mentioned so far - and in my opinion an important one - is the fact that Flash is a proprietary technique/format. That's a big drawback. We have the iron grip of MS on office software, we don't want the same on the internet. There should be an open format alternative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point not mentioned so far - and in my opinion an important one - is the fact that Flash is a proprietary technique/format. That&#8217;s a big drawback. We have the iron grip of MS on office software, we don&#8217;t want the same on the internet. There should be an open format alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Kistner</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-14556</link>
		<author>Justin Kistner</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-14556</guid>
					<description>I totally think &lt;a href="http://www.metafluence.com/a-critique-on-the-changing-face-of-video-and-mtvs-new-website-in-order-to-discuss-challenges-facing-rich-media-web-designers" rel="nofollow"&gt;Flash is an important part of the web design future&lt;/a&gt;. The issue is how to leverage it using &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancement" rel="nofollow"&gt;progressive enhancement&lt;/a&gt; in order to not lose the value of accessible development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally think <a href="http://www.metafluence.com/a-critique-on-the-changing-face-of-video-and-mtvs-new-website-in-order-to-discuss-challenges-facing-rich-media-web-designers" rel="nofollow">Flash is an important part of the web design future</a>. The issue is how to leverage it using <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancement" rel="nofollow">progressive enhancement</a> in order to not lose the value of accessible development.</p>
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		<title>By: Technikwürze &#187; Technikwürze 51 - Das Comeback von Flash</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-16402</link>
		<author>Technikwürze &#187; Technikwürze 51 - Das Comeback von Flash</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-16402</guid>
					<description>[...] Anti-Flash Standardistas [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Anti-Flash Standardistas [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Intelligent Experience Design &#187; Articles &#187; Is Your Website Perfect?</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-17116</link>
		<author>Intelligent Experience Design &#187; Articles &#187; Is Your Website Perfect?</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-17116</guid>
					<description>[...] Not having data for the positive attributes of these sites, let us examine the &#8220;negative&#8221; aspects. According to the formula, sites are penalized for having pop-ups, excessive advertising and flash. In the case of these sites, they certainly employ pop-ups (full-screen viewing windows) and flash for viewing the content, and would thus be penalized for these features. This is to say then, that even if these sites were to be perfectly accessible, secure, functional and usable, they would never reach perfection because they employ useful features that enhance the user experience and actually make the site work. Does this seem a little off? There are actually times when multimedia integration is necessary and beneficial for a site. See discussion on appropriate use of flash within websites and accessibility tips for Flash (PDF). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Not having data for the positive attributes of these sites, let us examine the &#8220;negative&#8221; aspects. According to the formula, sites are penalized for having pop-ups, excessive advertising and flash. In the case of these sites, they certainly employ pop-ups (full-screen viewing windows) and flash for viewing the content, and would thus be penalized for these features. This is to say then, that even if these sites were to be perfectly accessible, secure, functional and usable, they would never reach perfection because they employ useful features that enhance the user experience and actually make the site work. Does this seem a little off? There are actually times when multimedia integration is necessary and beneficial for a site. See discussion on appropriate use of flash within websites and accessibility tips for Flash (PDF). [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Clark</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-46281</link>
		<author>Joe Clark</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 18:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-46281</guid>
					<description>More accurately, for every 10,000 inaccessible Flash sites, you’ll find one site that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More accurately, for every 10,000 inaccessible Flash sites, you’ll find one site that is.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Faulkner</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-46286</link>
		<author>Andrew Faulkner</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 18:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-46286</guid>
					<description>Joe,

Thanks for stopping by, mate. I too think that many Flash sites are inaccessible and the accessible ones are few and far between. But do you think that for the uses that PJ pointed out in the article (e.g. Video or audio playback) that there are 'better' alternatives to Flash? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Personally, I agree with PJ in that Flash isn't the worst solution to some problems on the web - it's just often misused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>Thanks for stopping by, mate. I too think that many Flash sites are inaccessible and the accessible ones are few and far between. But do you think that for the uses that PJ pointed out in the article (e.g. Video or audio playback) that there are &#8216;better&#8217; alternatives to Flash? I&#8217;d love to hear your thoughts on this. Personally, I agree with PJ in that Flash isn&#8217;t the worst solution to some problems on the web - it&#8217;s just often misused.</p>
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		<title>By: design simple web</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-131397</link>
		<author>design simple web</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-131397</guid>
					<description>true. can you imagen now designing websites without flash. just take a look at youtube for example - all movies are in F.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>true. can you imagen now designing websites without flash. just take a look at youtube for example - all movies are in F.</p>
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		<title>By: shwell</title>
		<link>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-218743</link>
		<author>shwell</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2008 03:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://fadtastic.net/2006/12/03/anti-flash/#comment-218743</guid>
					<description>I hate animated content and hate flash as it's the tool used by ad freaks to distract my viewing pleasure. I acknowledge the need for Internet advertising but if it's animated, I block it in my firewall and anti .swf software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate animated content and hate flash as it&#8217;s the tool used by ad freaks to distract my viewing pleasure. I acknowledge the need for Internet advertising but if it&#8217;s animated, I block it in my firewall and anti .swf software.</p>
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